From Rocking Charts to Tax Smart: Alex White on Business, Incentives & Innovation
Welcome back to another episode of the Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise Accountant. I'm your host, Heidi Henderson. And today, we have a truly incredible guest joining us, someone who's not only shaped the way businesses access economic incentives, but also make waves in the tech and music industries. My guest today is Alex White. He is a two time founder, an expert in tax credits and government incentives, and the chief digital officer at Engineered Tax Services.
Heidi Henderson:Before leading ETS's state level credits and incentives practice, Alex was the cofounder and CEO of Subcity, where he and his team built a groundbreaking database of local, state, and federal incentives, helping clients claim tens of millions of dollars. And that was before subsidy was acquired by ETS. But Alex's entrepreneurial journey started long before that. In 02/2008, he cofounded Next Big Sound, a music analytics company that quickly became an industry leader before being inquired by Pandora in 02/2015. At Pandora, Alex played a key role in content and personalization, overseeing music, comedy, and podcast discovery.
Heidi Henderson:His career then took him to SiriusXM, where he worked with the top leadership to drive content innovation. Alex has been featured in Fast Company, Forbes, Billboard, Bloomberg Businessweek, Entrepreneur Magazine, and the New York Times, not to mention multiple 30 under 30 lists for his game changing contributions. Today, we're gonna talk about his journey as an entrepreneur, what he's learning about scaling businesses and navigating acquisitions, and dive into the tax and incentive space where businesses are leaving money on the table and how they can capitalize on economic incentives. We'll also explore how he balances work, family, and personal well-being. And, of course, I'll ask him for a book recommendation so you don't wanna miss it.
Heidi Henderson:Let's dive in. Alex, welcome to the show. Alex, you've had an incredible entrepreneurial journey from cofounding the next big sound to selling it to Pandora and then later building Sub City, which then got acquired by Engineered Tax Services, which we're excited to talk about. Can you take us back to the early days? What inspired you to become an entrepreneur, and what were those first years like?
Alex White:Yeah. Well, it's great to talk to you. And, you know, when I think back to growing up in Ithaca, my dad was a professional musician, taught cello lessons. My mom's, was an ESL teacher. English is a second language.
Alex White:So I didn't grow up with, you know, business people, but loved playing music and, you know, realized very quickly that I didn't like playing my songs in front of other people and that I didn't wanna be on stage, but I wanted to sign rock stars and, you know, bands that would go on to become famous. So I interned at Universal Records in New York and asked all the people in the corner office how they got there. And none of them said that they started as an intern and worked their way up. They all had started their own record labels or companies like that. And that was my first light bulb moment of, wow, maybe I need to start something and then get acquired if I wanna be, you know, a record mogul with the gold plaques in the corner office.
Alex White:So that's when I started looking at entrepreneurship for the first time. I was in college at Northwestern and, ended up starting the next big sound senior year of college with two other, students. And the first version of the site let anyone create their own fantasy record label and sign the bands they thought were gonna become popular to their own record label, kind of like a fantasy sports for music idea. And we had no way to make any money and, we're three kids, 21 years old. And, we were about to shut the company down when we got into Techstars in Boulder and moved out there and switched the idea on day one to a data analytics platform for the music industry, which is what the next big sound ultimately became and turned into.
Alex White:So it wasn't a straight shot there by any means, but slowly kind of trying to figure out, you you know, how we start something from from scratch and get it off the ground.
Heidi Henderson:Wow. I mean, that's that's such an amazing journey because you're really thinking back on that. First off, I didn't know you're a musician or started out as a musician, so I think that's great. What do you play?
Alex White:Guitar.
Heidi Henderson:Oh, nice. Okay. Okay. But that's amazing that you were able to take something that you enjoyed and that your family did a lot of, but recognizing maybe where your strengths and weaknesses were personally and what was a better fit for you rather than that. You know, it's interesting because to your point, I don't like to play in front of people.
Heidi Henderson:I don't wanna be, you know, the star of the show, so maybe there's some other way. So to so so taking that and then carrying that over into creating a music platform, that's that's so cool to hear.
Alex White:Yeah. And then senior year of college, I had a consulting job I was supposed to start and I quit before I started to build Next Big Sound and, had to give back the signing bonus, which was painful. But my roommate at the time, took the safe job with Lehman Brothers Nice. Two thousand eight. And so during the financial apocalypse, you know, that was a pretty big illustration that even the safest jobs, are not, that safe.
Alex White:And something as crazy as starting, you know, a business out of undergrad, ended up being a lot longer duration and tenure than, you know, one of the biggest banks in the world.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. I mean, that's a that's a pretty meaningful lesson, because it feels like such a leap of faith to start your own company. And you've scaled multiple businesses in different industries, which is really interesting, so we'll get to Subcity and some of that stuff. But what are some of the universal lessons that you've learned through starting and growing a successful company?
Alex White:Yeah. I think just being comfortable with ambiguity and managing uncertainty. And I think people will do a lot, to avoid that massive ambiguity that comes with starting something from scratch. So startups are just temporary organizations in search of a repeatable scalable business. And how do you try to course through that and measure progress and work with others and bring people along and make sure you're learning as fast as possible?
Alex White:You know, and all of life is uncertain and ambiguous. So I think startups are just a very pure version of, managing your own psychology through even though you don't have the answers and just pulling on the threads, being intellectually honest about what's working and not. And I carry those skills across, you know, two venture backed startups, but also as an executive or leader at at companies, that are much bigger, that are still trying to figure out how do we reinvent ourselves, where can we expand from here. And that muscle, you know, has proven really useful across, you know, even personal life as well.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I I like that in managing the expectations and the the mental side of it is pretty powerful because I was having a conversation earlier with a a CPA talking about a client that's incredibly successful. He did 10,000,000 in personal revenue this year, or last year, 2024. He's not filed tax returns in the last five years.
Heidi Henderson:And this guy was saying, yeah. It's it's just super crazy. He hasn't filed returns. He's just he just he just does his thing. He runs his business.
Heidi Henderson:And, and now the state is shutting him down because he hasn't filed returns. Anyway, I I digress, but my point being that oftentimes, we see business owners who they take this leap of faith, but they're really they don't have all their ducks in a row. They're not maybe the most sophisticated, particularly where it comes to incentives and tax credits or, financial structuring and and things like that. But, to your point, it's really fascinating to see the success of many of these business owners who are able to compartmentalize and just push forward to build something. For you, I mean, you have you have taken a company that you grew and then were able to then sell it, which is a major milestone for any entrepreneur.
Heidi Henderson:You've been through multiple acquisitions from Pandora to SiriusXM and then Subcity to ETS. So what have been some of the biggest lessons that you've learned through those transitions specifically?
Alex White:Yeah. I think the opportunity to get to you know, every business starts with a mission or a reason for being that, you know, I need to resonate deeply, you know, willing to give up, sacrifice all the, you know, time and energy and opportunity cost of doing other things. And so even though they're totally different fields, next big sound was data data analytics for the music industry, subsidy was digitizing economic incentives and tax credits for small and medium sized businesses. One of the animating themes across both of them was, how do we take something that is for generally used by the biggest players in the space, either the global major labels for promoting, you know, the number one and top artists in the world and bring those tools and, expertise and analysis to every individual artist on the planet? Similarly, how do we take the strategies and the tax credits and programs that the big four and all of their fortune 500 clients are utilizing and bring that to every small and medium sized business owner across the country.
Alex White:And I feel really lucky in both cases. You know, we didn't figure out how to build billion dollar standalone IPO companies for next big sound or, subsidy. But in each case, we found acquiring firms that really shared our mission and then turbocharged us with resources and expertise and distribution, that allowed that mission to continue. So within Pandora, Next Big Sound became the reporting data dashboard for every artist who's on Pandora. Millions of artists could see their data, for free and a whole bunch of tools to actually get promoted and grow their careers.
Alex White:And within ETS, obviously, the thousands of CPA relationships and clients that exist, we now can run these opportunity reports where instead of, subsidy fighting tooth and nail for, you know, building these relationships, ETS offers that kind of platform and distribution for that mission to be continued and almost, turbocharged exponentially because of the historical relationships and great client base and trust that's been established over the years. So it's different use cases and examples and people. But I love working with people, smart people on hard problems and, you know, feel very lucky that the mission gets to continue. There's a lot of startup founders that, you know, the the companies go under or can't raise the next financing round or figure it out. And in both cases here, getting to continue that mission, but just with larger teams and resources has been really, really awesome.
Heidi Henderson:The the, the the journey from building this music platform and then moving into Pandora or SiriusXM and now shifting into Subcity is not a clear path. So let's rewind just a little bit. It's such a huge shift from I understand you were working on analytics in that space. Where did you all of a sudden have a breakthrough or a moment when you thought, hey, we should build a platform and and what what we need to define too, what what is this subsidy, which now is engineered opportunity reports. Let's really define what that is, but but but as we go through that journey of defining what it is, how did you get from being in this music space to even coming up with the idea of building a database that is specifically for identifying tax credits and incentives?
Alex White:Great question. That's one my wife, I think, asked when, you know, I used to go to Grammys every year, and now I'm going to tax accounting conferences and meet ups. Yeah. I I'm a big believer that anything is interesting if you go deep enough into it. And so I carved a lane with data analytics in the music industry that, you know, I had honestly never thought of, prior to 02/2008.
Alex White:But, in the same way that, you know, I used my interest in signing rock stars to understand that I need to start something, you know, just continuing to kind of chase and pull. And as I started and grew and sold Next Big Sound, I realized I just love starting companies. And so, you know, I was fortunate to be able to take a year off after leaving SiriusXM, which had bought Pandora. The one idea I'd held, during the Next Big Sound journey and not been able to kick was, kind of a next big sound lens on cities and real estate. So can we understand and map, what was happening block by block to understand?
Alex White:Alright. There was a orange theory right there now and a Whole Foods. But before that, it was a auto body shop and a secondhand clothing store. And before that, it was, you know, a vacant lot or a brownfield, you know, redevelopment site. And can we use that trajectory to map and understand which cities, blocks, and parcels were likely to become popular in the future in the same way we were doing that for bands and artists.
Alex White:So I just really dove into cities and real estate and transactions and trying to look and understand what gnarly problems existed at the intersection of small businesses and fintech and and cities. And and, you know, one idea was this retail site selection idea in that year off. I call it my sabbatical where talking to lots of smart people about different problems and areas and solutions and ideas and what they were seeing in the market. But if I'm gonna open a bar or a yoga studio or a coffee shop or a restaurant, where's the optimal place to place it based on all the online and offline data that's available, to set it up for success? It's so hard to open a new restaurant.
Alex White:How do you, you know, not avoid, you know, the cursed corner where five other pizza places have tried to open in the last, you know, twenty years? And so that was the first idea, and I chased that down. I worked with the Warby Parker real estate team, the Apple real estate team, the Whole Foods real estate team. How do you cite and this is a whole giant practice area called site selection that I came to know. But I lost faith we could build a big scalable software business in that area, but we tripped over economic incentives and tax credits.
Alex White:And so my cofounder, Chris Clark, and I, we ran an experiment with 30 music venues who were applying for the shuttered venue operator grant during the global pandemic. And so we were helping them find additional credits and incentives that were relevant to them, based on where they were located and some aspects of the business. And we had to shut down our type form page because we had so many independent venues flooding the system asking for these incentive reports, that we couldn't fulfill them because it was just me kind of researching and looking them up one by one. That was kind of the evidence and confidence we needed to say, hey, hey, if we build a platform where we can generate these reports based on a couple of pieces of data, that seems like there's a big pull in the marketplace from independent music venues. Let's actually expand that and focus on manufacturers, which is the largest sector, for economic incentives and tax credits.
Alex White:And then, you know, pulling on that thread of curiosity and questions and listening, was what led us to building subsidy. And we raised $3,000,000 seed round to digitize thousands of local state and federal economic incentives and tax credits, and make a matching algorithm to pair companies with the programs that they should consider. And then hope helping them streamline the filing process for a few of those different credit and incentive programs. So we were coming at it from, you know, a background in the music industry with millions of tracks, trillions of streams, hundreds of thousands or millions of artists. And so looking at these incentives and tax credits from that perspective, it was like, oh, there's only 2,000 of these or 3,000.
Alex White:Meanwhile, everyone in the world of economic development, you know, you talk to I started cold outreaching to economic developers around the country, including Ithaca where I grew up and, Evanston and and other places I've lived. And, they said, you know, there's no way to keep on top of all this stuff. It's always changing and it's crazy. So, we kind of disregarded that conventional wisdom and said, you know, I think with thoughtful human touch points and review and technology, we can actually monitor and stay on top of these programs as they change.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. It's been so fascinating because you and I started working together, I don't know, year and a half, two years maybe before we decided to acquire subsidy. We saw the integration and the need for identifying those government incentives and funding opportunities and tax credits. We've been asked since, of course, we've been doing this for twenty five years, and we're looking at and capturing incentives and credits for business owners, for real estate investors, and many of these sectors. What we have not ever delved into is the local and state component to that because of the national scope of what we do and how many properties nationally, the well, you just mentioned it.
Heidi Henderson:The reality of trying to do that manually and stay up to date on all of these provisions, which are constantly every legislative, group, every, elected official change, every year. There are different things expiring and coming back online. It was just not something that we were able to keep track of. And the amount of research that would be required for every single case scenario was totally unrealistic. So what you built really does have such tremendous application for businesses.
Heidi Henderson:We see so much application with business owners, with people opening new locations in different all kinds of different verticals, certainly with manufacturing, and being able to recognize and have a resource for finding all of those opportunities. What are some of the biggest surprises that you've uncovered in working with this and researching government incentives?
Alex White:Yeah. Well, first of all, ETS, you know, and what's been so great is that shared belief in the opportunity to bring software and the latest technology alongside professional service and deep domain expertise to transform this world of incentives and credits. And you do need technology if we, you know, wanna achieve our mission of helping thousands or hundreds of thousands of small and medium sized businesses identify, claim, and collect the billions of dollars in economic incentives and tax credits over the next, you know, ten, twenty years. And so some of the surprises, that we've seen over the years and even recently, you know, I I have keep a list of, superlative incentives and credits. So, you know, the first bill passed by the first congress signed by George Washington was an economic incentive and tax credit piece of legislation.
Alex White:It was a tariff, implementing tariffs on imported goods into America in the late seventeen hundreds.
Heidi Henderson:Wow.
Alex White:Some people think this is, you know, a recent phenomenon, but it goes back to the founding, you know, of the country. I think there's some some of the unique weird ones is, different sectors are prioritized by different states. So, Connecticut has three programs related to digital animation, believe it or not.
Heidi Henderson:Oh, really?
Alex White:Supervising the hiring and retention of digital animation studios in that state. There's some very, narrow ones in Pennsylvania related to a company in Lititz that does tour stages for the mega tours. Think the Madonna's and the Rolling Stones and the Michael Jacksons. And so there's a very specific incentive package, designed there. But those are the, you know, unique fun ones to think and and talk about.
Alex White:The vast majority of these are just kind of background, hardworking programs that are triggered based on hiring, buying equipment, and investing in real estate or or community. And so, you know, the main thing that we try to talk through with business owners is being alert for the various triggers that these programs are are done with. And it's not like consumer or welfare or anything. They all of these programs have evolved to ultimately be tied to real jobs, real capital spend, or other tangible investments in the state or the workforce that, you know, grow the tax base or upskills the working, population, or other real economic, impact.
Heidi Henderson:Okay. So here's a totally unfair question. If you are a business owner and you are going to open a new facility somewhere, Based on what you've seen, if you're really looking at what are some of the best incentives that are available, what are some of the best credits and funding opportunities where I feel like the local governments or state governments are really gonna help me succeed. Based on what you've learned functioning and running reports for businesses all over the country, what kind of business would you open and in what state or city?
Alex White:Wow. Great question. Now I have thousands of incentive reports floating through my head that we've done over the years, for businesses large and small. I do think, not to nerd out too much, but that's kind of our our business, which is, economic clusters are really a fascinating element to all of this. And so, you know, whether it's Florence and the Renaissance or Silicon Valley and, the chip development over the years, that clustering of talent and firms is really important.
Alex White:So I think the type of business I would be building, let's say manufacturing because I know it very well. I would wanna find other similar businesses even though it might be counterintuitive to say, hey. I wanna set up shop near my potential competitors. I think that is where the highest likelihood of success for a firm comes from. It's kind of like why you see the auto dealers all sitting setting up shop side by side, in any locality across the country.
Alex White:Mhmm. And so, let's say I'm, starting a semiconductor firm. I might want to focus on, you know, parts of the country where semiconducting manufacturers are setting up shop. And most recently, that's Arizona and Ohio. Ohio traditionally has some of the best incentive packages and economic development teams, most responsive.
Alex White:And so we have a lot of clients there and have heard good things from them about what the tax regime and incentive packages are like for those businesses. So we're building a semiconductor plant in Ohio.
Heidi Henderson:That's so interesting. I like that. Well, I don't think it's nerding out. I this is the stuff I I I find really interesting. And I'm like, look.
Heidi Henderson:You you have, like, insider information. You're seeing all these different businesses, and you're seeing everything that's available.
Alex White:And that's where it comes to the site selection, question from beginning, which is, hey. What is the optimal location for my manufacturing facility? And we deal with companies all the time that are, hey. You know, I'm in this state that makes it really hard to do business. What are other alternative options?
Alex White:And where's the best place for me based on the workforce I need? Other similar businesses, my supply chain, where the executives wanna live, and a couple other questions.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So then shifting to the CPA industry, since on this podcast, we talk a lot about the CPA industry, accounting, and and how there is a shift into being a bit more advisory minded and and, strategic in terms of looking at opportunities. Why do you think many CPAs are not leveraging some of these tools to identify tax incentives, and what are some common misconceptions that you think kinda hold hold them back from utilizing something like this for their clients?
Alex White:I think there's one giant misconception in the whole industry, and I'll blame the business community and the CPA, community alike, which is this giant gap between service provider expectations and then what's actually delivered. And so every business owner that you talk to, if you ask them if they're happy with their CPA, you say, they they think that their CPA is on top of all of these programs. Oh, if this were a legitimate program, my guy or gal has been with us for years, they would have told me about them. And then you say, okay, well, can you actually introduce me to them? And I'll just talk through and make sure that they're covering off on all of these.
Alex White:And then when you talk to the CPA one on one, they say, not only are we not on top of these programs, we don't want anything to do with them because it adds complexity, it slows down the return, and we're just already firing clients and busier than we can possibly be. And so that gap is just I've I've never seen a bigger gap between what a company thinks they're getting from, you know, the provider and what they're actually getting. Now there are a small and growing percentage of CPAs that are strategic and proactive in surfacing these, programs, but that I just see that as the massive, opportunity, that we're trying to solve, and we're trying to solve it and figure it out. What is the way we insert ourselves there so that it's valuable across the board to the business owner, to the CPA? And we're experimenting with lots of different features and format.
Alex White:But the kind of way we're doing it right now is we generate these engineered opportunity reports that CPAs can give to their clients and walk through with them one by one. Hey. You're already doing the r and d tax credit. Have you considered x, y, or z additional program because you're in Arizona or Ohio or Florida or another state, or, you know, you haven't done any of these programs, but you just, you know, are buying a building and hiring a bunch of employees. Have you considered these workforce training and development grants or cost segregation study or other, real estate, tactics and kind of partnering behind the scenes like ETS has done for twenty almost twenty five years to say, hey.
Alex White:We're gonna be the experts staying on top of all of these programs that are annoying that come and go. But you'll look like the hero servicing them to your business clients. You can use them when you're pitching new business to say, hey, we're bringing you strategic ideas and different than, you know, the guy or gal down the street. And then also just to make sure that, you know, you're servicing your existing clients and your best clients as thoughtfully and strategically as you can. The big four have strategic tax teams and state strategic tax teams that go through clients one by one on an annual basis.
Alex White:And we wanna bring that capability to every CPA and every client, big or small, so they all feel like they have, that team of experts over their shoulder, surfacing these programs opportunistically. And then long term where I think this gets where it should actually live is in the Wolters Kluwer, Thompson Reuters, Intuit software that CPAs are using for the returns. How amazing would it be to pop up, you know, the top five strategies that a client should pursue based on, you know, the input and information. Wow. It looks like there's a huge state tax liability.
Alex White:Did you know that there are these four programs that, you know, might be worth considering? And then ideally, we can have a system for collecting data, fulfilling a partner network for referrals. But, you know, that's, taking time to build out. But that's kind of the long term vision that we're we see.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. I mean, you you completely summed up our complete vision with the acquisition of Subcity into engineered tech services and recognizing what we want to see in helping more businesses and CPAs navigate that because it really to your point, and we could talk for a long time about that disconnect between what's actually happening versus what what people sort of assume or want or need. But part of that is the the difficulty with staffing, the immense workload of just simply doing compliance, just the the complexity of doing a tax return is enough to, you know, to already fill someone's entire work capacity beyond what a normal, person should work, I think. Right. But what your platform really has done is taken something incredibly complicated, complex, and detailed that would, to your point, have taken, you know, local teams' immense numbers of research hours to identify and really pulled it all into one place, constantly being updated with streams and connections to these other local websites to reflect all of those things that may be available for those business owners.
Heidi Henderson:And it does go hand in hand with this big shift that we've been seeing into the strategic tax planning with taxpayers really wanting more personalized tax planning, and then this kind of couples hand in hand with utilizing a platform like this to be able to identify what's available for their business, what other incentives might be there. Can you give a couple of examples of a really powerful but underutilized state or federal incentive that you think more companies should take advantage of? What are you seeing come up quite often that is not being utilized?
Alex White:Yeah. I mean, there's so many the vast majority of these programs and dollars go unclaimed or just to the largest companies with teams of tax attorneys and and experts there. It really depends obviously where you are and what sector you're in. But some of the most common ones that we see clients not know about and then take advantage of when they do understand is Indiana has a great manufacturing readiness program. It's up to $200,000 in matching grant money for investing in equipment and automation, in the state for manufacturers.
Alex White:So almost every time we can, we surface that one to our manufacturing clients or prospects or partners, in the state. There's a workforce training and development program in Pennsylvania, WebNet PA, up to $2,000 per employee for, reskilling, training, reimbursement dollars. And that's a very popular and often missed program that's pretty straightforward to apply for and fulfill. And then the rest are kind of we could go state by state to, unpack kind of the most missed and most utilized, programs depending on sector and and stage of company and where the investment's happening. But, again, aligning, you know, the, investment that the business is making with, you know, the programs is, really the goal.
Alex White:And it starts to get exciting when you can start stacking these on top of each other. And so, because you're expanding your facility, you're gonna need to buy more equipment. You're gonna need to hire more employees. You're gonna need to train and upscale, that labor. And so, usually, all of those are triggers that can start to really nicely stack on top of one another, if you work through them.
Heidi Henderson:That that's so much of what we're seeing as we're running these reports. How do you connect the dots from either having a conversation or connecting either with a CPA or a business owner to identifying some of these? How complicated is it?
Alex White:So our matching system can go off as little as, you know, name, website, industry sector, code, and address. But, ideally, we have revenue numbers and employee account because some of these programs are capped based on size of the business or need to be above or below certain threshold. And so we generate that kind of base level report with, you know, five or six pieces of data, and that's the initial incentive report. We answer five to seven important questions that we make either, you know, first party declared, like the company themselves goes through an answer or the CPA can, you know, answer those questions. Or we just make a couple of inferences, like, if you are a, software development company, we assume that you are developing software, new products and software.
Alex White:And so that's, you know, how we get our, preliminary opportunity report. And obviously, the more we know about the business, hey, we're developing this new product, or we are buying this piece of equipment, or buying, you know, this building, those can all enhance the report. And so we're trying to balance between not asking, you know, for 500 pieces of data and a long, you know, process, with, you know, showing enough early high level results that gets them interested enough to say, hey. You know, we are investing in this aspect of the business. I wanna learn more about that Indiana program.
Heidi Henderson:That that's one of the things I've actually been the most intrigued by is how little information you're able to gather and then convert that into truly applicable programs. Do you have, or have you, given the analytics mind that you have, have you created some metrics on the average or typical benefit that you've been able to identify or that the platform has generated for some businesses? Or maybe even just give us a couple of examples of a couple of businesses and, how much benefit was there?
Alex White:Yeah. It's usually a function of how much is being invested. So for a company that's investing a hundred million dollars, they'll see, you know, 10,000,000 in benefit, versus, you know, investing a hundred thousand dollars. We'll see a much smaller, percentage. We usually can identify, you know, for a fast or a growing business, call it 20 to 200 employees and growing revenue year over year, about $50,000 in incentives between, you know, some of the federal programs that are common, like an r and d tax credit, and then individual, low interest loans or grants or other sorts of programs, business assistance.
Alex White:And, you know, but that really runs the gamut from, partial sales tax exemptions and exemption certificates on purchases up to, you know, multimillion dollar tax credits or the client that we worked with with, nearly a million dollars in energy efficiency tax credits.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. It's so broad. I know that's a difficult question because it varies so dramatically by industry, by state, by business type, and to your point, really looking at employees. That's one thing I I do wanna comment on is that there is a big component of hiring. The Trump administration put numerous incentives in play, and then the IRA bill, Biden's administration also added and increased the number of incentives that build on really incentivizing jobs, job growth within The United States, and research and development credits are really linked to job growth and adding to your workforce, and then also training.
Heidi Henderson:So that is one area we certainly see a tremendous up opportunity with is actually hiring staff. How many people are being hired? How much are they being paid? And then what's your investment into them for training, but also just into innovation or, building something in your local economy, in your state, and then at the federal level. There's just so much opportunity there.
Heidi Henderson:It's really fantastic. Shifting gears a little bit. Now we're gonna jump over. You have been featured on many top business publications, which is amazing. I love all of the credentials and you are multifaceted.
Heidi Henderson:I know you're always learning. So what's one book that has had a huge impact on your career and your way of thinking?
Alex White:Probably the most impactful book was The Second Mountain by David Brooks that I read during my sabbatical. The first mountain is the mountain that we all climb for, external reasons. That's the where'd you go to school and the Forbes thirty under 30 list and all of that external validation. And the second mountain is the one, if you're lucky enough to find it, that you climb because you're intrinsically excited and interested in it. So it kinda goes back to what we were talking about with, you know, I find what I get to do every day fascinating.
Alex White:I'm meeting with, you know, climate tech companies and food and beverage manufacturers and aerospace and defense companies and, software developers and biotech and everything in between, and helping them identify financing to grow and invest in their communities and their businesses. But it's a lot less glamorous than the music industry where I used to spend, you know, all my time and attention on the shows and meeting with artists and managers and and things. So I'm a big believer in, enjoying the journey. And I think once you reach that, whatever mountain top you're climbing or the first one, you realize, actually, there's no arrival and you can't spend all day just sitting on the top of a mountain. You know, the the journey happens along the way.
Alex White:That's where life grows. And so finding, you know, the mountain that you're excited about climbing is, and in a way that's sustainable and durable and produces, you know, long term results. That's really what life is about. And why I love the podcast so much is just going behind the scenes with, folks in the accounting and CPA profession that you do so well around how do you stay healthy and motivated and sustainable. Everybody loses if, you know, you tap out after the first busy season and can't get back up and can't be there for your family and can't, work in a sustainable and successful manner.
Alex White:So I think a lot about that kind of construction and, you know, the second mountain is, you know, sort of the big thing that you're climbing, but how do you climb it each day with smart people and hard problems and find what you're uniquely suited for as, you know, the challenge of all of our lifetimes.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. I I appreciate you bringing that up. I mean, you're you're you're taking me down the path I was going. My next question, so you were were in sync here. You're right.
Heidi Henderson:I've loved digging into that a little bit about the human psyche and essentially what drives us. And you mentioned what intrinsically motivates us as being the second mountain, and I wanna read that book. I haven't. Because a lot of people get to that stage in life at a certain age when you start to really reflect and be like, well, you know, what really matters to me and what what is my why behind what I'm doing? And to have that conversation so much now, there's all these life coaches that have, you know, come out of the woodwork everywhere.
Heidi Henderson:You're you're younger. You're you're you're a younger than a lot of the people on our team, which I appreciate. It has such a fresh perspective, and yet you are so successful and so driven. And I love that you took that sabbatical. What was your realization for what is intrinsically motivating you that really brings you the most joy?
Heidi Henderson:And and because there's something about what we do every day that's, like, I call it feeding my soul. You know? What's the thing that feeds your soul that really makes you tick and and keeps you going every day?
Alex White:Yeah. I had an investor say that Alex is the smartest 13 year old I've ever met.
Heidi Henderson:Well and for the record, Alex is a little older than 13.
Alex White:We were 21 when we started, you know, the company and, you know, running a venture backed start up there. So I've always, like, tried tried to, or been acted older or been older than, you know, maybe my my age was. In terms of what gets me going, that sabbatical really helped me. I I spent the first five months of the year not talking to a single person, no business, meal or call or anything whatsoever. Literally nothing.
Alex White:And I the end of the Internet, I hit the end of my to read, to watch, to listen to list. And then I got to build back in, you know, what's my exercise during the week so I don't get hurt and I, you know, can stay healthy and eat what I, you know, want to and and, you know, maintain, you know, a healthy, my health. And then, you know, how much time can I spend with my wife and kids before they start to get sick of me or, you know? And then how much, then I still had, you know, how much time can I read? How much time can I, you know, talk to people?
Alex White:And I still had, you know, six to ten hours a day where I really just wanted to work on hard problems with smart people. And so what gets me, feeds my soul is learning every day. If I don't learn for more than, you know, a day or two, I start to feel like I'm going backwards or stagnant. And so that was really the, I stayed five years at SiriusXM and Pandora because I kept taking on bigger teams and roles there. And ultimately when I stopped learning was when I was like, I need to change.
Alex White:And, so for me, it's all about learning new things, working on hard problems, trying to, figure out, like, we're doing, how do I bring a team, make every business owner in America feel like they have a team of tax experts and legal experts over their shoulder, highlighting and and filing applications for them. That's a really gnarly problem. And I'm four years in, and I think we have a long way to go. But we made a lot of progress, but that's the there's no finish line. There's no arrival.
Alex White:That's just, you know, how do I, work on that with people that see that same vision and that I can learn from, because I think the best teams are ones where it's, you know, an intersection of accountants and engineers and data scientists and product people and, that the world and, you know, exist at these interesting unique intersections of interest that you and your team have. And that's where learning and new ideas come from too.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. Absolutely. And I I appreciate bringing the human into the corporate environment and really understanding how we can find the balance. My last podcast was with Dave Lucas, and he said a great thing. He's like, I'm not a big fan of the work life balance phrase, but it's about harmony.
Heidi Henderson:So finding the harmony between the things that we want to do, we love to do in life, in all things. So I love that. Alex, it's been such a great conversation. Before we wrap up, if there's one piece of advice you'd give to our listeners, whether it's entrepreneurs, accountants, business owners, what would that be?
Alex White:I've been it took me a lot longer to come to this than I wish, but I think a lot now about what I call a ten year test, which is if you live this day or this week or this month for ten years in a row, would you be healthy and happy or healthy, wealthy and wise, and happy? And or what changes do you need to make for that to be true? And that could even be kind of find your perfect day and your perfect morning routine. I realized like if I can read and work in a coffee shop for an hour to start my day, I'm like the happiest person. And when I am disrupted from that, I'm like very grumpy.
Alex White:And so like, why don't I just do that and try to carve that time out every morning to read, think, and kind of go on offense? So I think, you know, thinking about your own ten year test, and is this sustainable over, you know, a ten year period? Or do I need to change and set up different boundaries or structure things differently so that I can, you know, do this for years to come?
Heidi Henderson:That's awesome. I love that idea. And I love that. I love that thought. I'm actually reading a book right now called four thousand weeks.
Alex White:I love that much.
Heidi Henderson:Time management for Melissa.
Alex White:Arnold Bergman.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. Yeah. And, it's so interesting because not at all what you would think of as a time management book. In fact, it's something entirely different. But to your point, it's looking at weeks, and it's really understanding the finite time that we have.
Heidi Henderson:One of my dear, dear friends right now was just diagnosed with cancer, and she's going through some crazy treatment. And it's really bizarre because I'm just started this book at that time, you know, just when I needed it and coincidentally it connects very deeply with her. Again, who would think a time management book would, connect on that level, but really focusing on we have finite time. So, let's not pretend we have forever, we have four thousand weeks. So, if you live this week for ten years or for forty or four hundred, where is that going to leave you?
Heidi Henderson:That's a that's a awesome philosophy and I love it. Alex, thank you so much. Finally, connecting with you, what's the best way for people to connect with you directly if they'd like to chat with you or have conversations?
Alex White:You can reach me at, awhite@engineertaxservices.com If you wanna email me, I'm on top of all the emails that come in. So that's probably the best, way to reach me. I'm mister Alex White on x or Twitter, and, you can also find me on LinkedIn. Happy to talk about engineered opportunity reports, or life philosophy or anything in between. And, Heidi, thanks for doing this.
Alex White:I always love chatting with you.
Heidi Henderson:Yeah. Absolutely. I've had so much fun getting to work with you. It's been a blessing really for the company, and it's been a a huge growth year for us. So, it's really exciting.
Heidi Henderson:For listeners, we will have a link in the show notes. I'm going to share a link to our web page with information about, engineered opportunity reports. And I'll also share a link to a forum If you have a business, if you're a business owner or you're a CPA and you wanna see what one of these reports may look like for a client, you can enter some of those high level details that Alex explained earlier. We'd love to visit that with you and just show you a little bit of what's available and how that might help you in those conversations in success in your business, or with clients as well. So, again, Alex, thank you so much for joining.
Heidi Henderson:Appreciate you being on the show, and I hope you have a fabulous day.
Alex White:You too. Thanks again.
Heidi Henderson:That wraps up this episode of Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise. I hope you found our discussion valuable and discovered new ways to simplify the world of tax incentives and deductions. Remember, with the right knowledge and strategy, you can make a lasting impact on your client's bottom line while still maintaining harmony in your own life. If you enjoyed the episode, please be sure to subscribe, rate, and review the show. You will also find helpful links in the show notes.
Heidi Henderson:For more resources, insights, and tax updates, head over to engineeredtaxservices.com, or follow my social media at engineered tax advice on all platforms. Thank you for tuning in, and I will see you next time on the Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise Accountant.
