Healthy Wealthy & Wise Accountants

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Katie: A fear is false evidence appearing real. I don't know who to quote that to. It's not mine. I've heard that from multiple people. But when you really look at fear and you go back to, okay, what is the worst case scenario, if I really go all in on this, what does it look like? And a lot of times what we're fearing, it's not going to happen and it's not that bad.

Heidi: This podcast is sponsored by Engineered Tax Services, a subsidiary of Engineered Advisory, whose goal is to support CPAs and their clients to achieve the highest and best use of time and resources. Ets offers specialty tax services and incentives which help expand your capabilities and ensure that your clients are paying only what is required in taxes and nothing more. To learn more about Engineered Tax services, go to Engineered Tax services.com and mention the healthy, Wealthy and Wise podcast to receive project discounts and a free CPA partnership book. Hi, everyone. This is Heidi Henderson and you are listening to the Healthy, Wealthy and Wise podcast for accountants. I am really passionate about people and the industry, and I truly believe that the accounting industry can do better for both our clients and it's professionals. So I'm going to share insights from people who have found professional success and who have managed to balance that with their physical, mental and personal health. So I hope you enjoy and I hope you get inspired. Accountants can earn free CPA From listening to this episode, just visit Earmark cpcomm. Download the app, take a short quiz and get your CPA certificate.

Heidi: And now on to the episode. Welcome to today's podcast. Our guest today is Katie Thomas. She is a CPA and I was so excited to have her on because we've actually done some work together. I have firsthand seen how effective her skills are and some of the value that she's brought to us as a company and to some of my colleagues. Katie specifically was on the top 50 women in accounting, 40 under 40 CPA practice advisor, and she has a leaders online marketing firm where she specifically says she helps companies and accounting firms increase their impact, their influence and their income through leadership marketing. And she has a really, really great LinkedIn page, and I would implore you to go look her up. Katie Thomas You will find her there and some really great posts, some Q&A. And you know, it's probably a highlight of how everyone should run their LinkedIn pages. I think there's some back and forth on whether people find value there or not. So, Katie, so much, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so excited you're being our guest today.

Katie: Thanks, Heidi, for having me. I'm excited to chat today.

Heidi: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know what? Give us some background. Tell us all about Katie and how you started out. Where are you from? And tell us a little bit of your your backstory.

Katie: Yeah. So I am from Kansas City. I was born and raised, but I grew up just I always knew that I wanted to go into business and be an entrepreneur. So I did everything from a young kid like gardening for people. I gave horseback riding lessons. I was constantly trying to like have the side hustle. And I also had a father who he had a small business. And so I got introduced to marketing at a really young age. I was building websites before I was even a teenager. I was running there setting up Google ads, My first W-2 job. I was a cold caller and so I just really got a lot of hands on experience at a young age. And then when I went to college, I was perplexed on, okay, what kind of career should I go into? I know I love business. I love marketing. I was still doing it at that time, but everyone's like, Hey, if you like business accounting, that's the language of business. And so I naturally I did like accounting. And so I took some accounting classes and I got my degree and one thing led to another, Hey, you might as well get your CPA. So I did that. I went down that track and I did work for the Big Four to go ahead and get the work experience. But while I was there, I was like, Wow, Not only do I miss marketing, but it seems like there is a huge need for accountants, and if I'm seeing this need a Big Four company, what's it like for the smaller firms? And so I decided to combine my skill set of marketing and accounting. And I, you know, there wasn't a lot of people doing marketing for accountants, especially when I started. So it's just been a lot of fun to grow and watch the industry grow and evolve and change over time.

Heidi: Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, that's, that's pretty cool Trajectory of seeing how you kind of started with this entrepreneurial spirit ended up getting your CPA, I think is amazing. You have Big Four experience. It seems like that's, you know, the initiation and how cool that you've kind of now converted into having your own business and working with companies in the industry. Tell me, tell me about some of your clients and what you're helping with them with.

Katie: Yeah. So all of our clients are either accounting for firms or we're serving B2B. So business to accountant like accounting tech vendors, tax credit firms, some wealth advisors that also serve accountants, anyone that is an accountant or serves accountants. That's really our specialty and we really help them hone in on their voice and in on their messaging. And so we'll do things to help them, whether it's their social media or content that's like on their website going out through emails. We'll also help them with their editing. So video editing, we're there to really help them bring out their good ideas and share their unique perspective because there's a lot of people online these days sharing very vanilla content, and that's not what people need more of, especially as now we have AI ChatGPT People can share vanilla content all day long, but that's not what stands out. It's what's actually unique to you and different to you. So we're really there to just be behind the scenes and create this content and this brand that it does what it's supposed to do. You're out there to make a difference in the world, but if no one knows about you, you can't create that impact.

Heidi: Yeah, that's a great point. What are you finding is the most. Effective. I mean, if we. Well, let me back up if I think specifically about social media. There is. I feel like it's I don't know. I guess I'm going with my instinct here. It's like a black hole. And then you see some of some people going crazy on TikTok and you see different companies doing things with Instagram and Facebook versus LinkedIn versus all these different platforms. How do you help a company navigate all of that and what are you seeing works versus doesn't work?

Katie: Yeah, so it really depends on the firm and what their goals are and also like who the personality is that we are working with. Because no matter how big of a company you are, you always need a spokesperson or multiple spokespersons like you. There is somebody that they're going to associate with. People do work with like a.

Heidi: Like a personality.

Katie: Exactly. Exactly. And so depending upon the person, the personality, there's going to be certain things that will make them maybe more effective on other platforms than, you know, if you're comparing the different social media platforms. And then also like, who's the client base? So who are we trying to attract? So when we marry those two things, it's like, okay, what is this person like? What type of content do they want to create? Is it video content? Is it written content? Is it a combination of both? Is it audio? And that's going to start to narrow down some platforms that might be more effective than others. And then who are they trying to reach? Because if you're trying to reach other business owners, LinkedIn is a great platform to start. But if you're trying to reach, say, younger professionals, maybe it's on TikTok that you want to start out on. So you have to really evaluate it on a case by case basis.

Heidi: Interesting. Interesting. So do you have some of your clients that are posting TikTok videos?

Katie: Oh, yeah. It works, especially for our clients who are looking to attract like, coaching students. That is a great platform. And it's kind of funny because everyone, you know, they think that it's just for people to be dancing on and just, you know, kind of scroll on, lay in bed, waste time. But people are making a lot of money from TikTok.

Heidi: It's so crazy. Um, have you helped any of your clients go, like, viral, I mean, or, you know, increase the followers a little bit? I'm kind of fascinated by this space. I haven't talked a lot about it, but my son is kind of a professional skier. His girlfriend is an influencer. And and, you know, they make a living really posting updates of their sort of lifestyle influencers. And I find it so fascinating and it feels like there probably is some opportunity for the right person to kind of step into that door and access something totally different.

Katie: So none of our clients have. We focused on creating content that allows them to live off of, say, just like influencer lifestyle content. That would be interesting to have someone come to us to want to try to do that. But we have definitely had people go viral and viral is relative. Um, you know, whenever you're looking at it from person to person, but we've had plenty of people go and they get a million views on a post that's absolutely viral by almost everyone's definition. But in kind of like what you're talking about, we've had a lot of clients who they'll now get sponsored by, say, the apps that they use in their firm to create a video or to send a newsletter or maybe now they're getting paid to be on a panel. So there are a lot of monetization opportunities, even if you aren't someone looking to just do it, say like become a lifestyle influencer, it's, Hey, if you build this brand, look at what you're already using and you're naturally going to want to share about, maybe you can be paid to do that whenever you'd already be doing it anyway.

Heidi: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I like I say, I find the whole thing a little intriguing. So. So what is the average client? I mean, you know, let's talk about LinkedIn. I mean, I've gone back and forth on LinkedIn quite a bit. I have a great network. It's definitely a great resource for connecting and staying in touch with some people. But more and more it does feel like there is more spam. I guess, you know, in the messages there's more people reaching out and trying to solicit business from a sales perspective. So how are you navigating that or kind of coaching people on that platform?

Katie: Yeah. So a lot of times people think that it's one just about posting content, which isn't true. Whenever you're really looking to build your brand and presence, you have to have this other community connection, engagement piece. And so on that side of things, a lot of times people are like, Well, I don't just want to be that person spamming, sending cold direct messages, and that's where you need to just be a human. It's like, ask yourself, would you send this to or would you say this if you were in person? And if the answer is no, then don't send that in a message. So rather than asking someone, Hey, do you want to book a call with me? Because that doesn't work, get to know them, ask them about something they posted recently. Or maybe if they didn't post, maybe ask them what led them to get involved in their industry. Just start a conversation and if your profile is set up correctly and you have the right content going out, they'll understand what you do. So if they're in need of that, they'll naturally reach out and ask you, Hey, can we have a conversation about this? Or, Hey, I saw this post. It was really interesting. Like, I'd like to learn more. And so marrying those two where you're actually building a community, having real conversations with people with the right content behind it, that's how you create a brand that ultimately is going to increase your impact, influence and income as a result.

Heidi: Perfect. Yeah, which is your tagline. I love that. Impact, influence and income. So tell me about what you are seeing as changes in the industry. How long? Well, I guess let's back up. How long have you been working in the CPA industry specifically since you graduated college?

Katie: So I have had my business for five years doing marketing for CPAs, and then I worked in Big Four for a couple of years prior to that. And then prior to that I was always doing marketing. So there's been five years of doing actual marketing for CPAs in the industry and a really big shift that is important for those in the accounting industry to understand is separating demand creation and demand capture. And so what's creating demand, like how people are hearing about you finding out about services, That's really where you need to spend time that people aren't. So let me give you an example. Let's say that someone is listening to this podcast and they hear that Engineer Tax Services sponsors it and they're like, Hey, I want to find out more about engineer tax services. And so they go and they type in engineer tax services into Google. And because a Google ad or maybe just SEO, they land on its website and they book an appointment. If you just look at the data, you would probably say, hey, our Google ads working or our SEO is working. But if you take a step back, you actually need to separate out what captured them, the website or maybe the Google ad, the SEO, and what created that demand.

Katie: And the demand creation is what a lot of times us as accountants, we we don't really put a lot of thought into because we like data, we like numbers. And it's sometimes hard to capture where these sales or these prospects are coming from, whether they heard us on a podcast or they saw our social media post. We like the data. And so starting to figure out how can we collect some of that data? That's really important to understand. So something any firm can do is just add a question on their intake, Hey, where did you hear about us? And don't give a dropdown because people are lazy. They're going to pick the first option and actually ask them. And some people would say, okay, well, what if they say they heard about us on the podcast? But really, you know, they had also seen us on social media. The important thing is, you know, what they think is important because that's ultimately the last impression, whether it was the first or the last, like whatever's in their mind, that's what you should start caring about.

Heidi: Yeah, that's a great point because that's one kind of dilemma if you want to look at it that way that we faced with our marketing is really trying to understand how much money should we we put in certain areas, how much should we invest, whether it's Google AdWords or, you know, Google keyword search engine optimization, website content, all of these things. And how do you monetize it? So yeah, we're like, okay, well, I spent, you know, $2,000 a month to have ad placements on Google. What did that result in and what was the overall benefit? The difficulty is it's to your point, we want to see numbers. We want to see what's the ROI on that, How much did I spend versus how much did I get? And that trickles down. But to your point, I think it's important and as a reminder that marketing really is about supporting an overall broad name recognition. Brand recognition as it's laid in multiple locations sort of across the whole, you know, the whole sphere of influence ultimately, because to your point, we have the same thing. We'll be in an event or we'll be somewhere else or someone will have mentioned, well, I worked with this company. Yes, they may go type that into Google. And it appears that it's coming from that. Maybe that's your ROI, but in fact it's trickling further. So I really like that. And too often we fail to really ask people, Where did you come across to us or who referred you or what was that lead in?

Katie: Yeah, and that whole idea of, hey, even if Google or, you know, ultimately our website converted them, it's like your website still is important. It's just understanding that that ultimately it captured them so important but it might not be you know, what created them. And so balancing spending money and time and energy on both is so important.

Heidi: Yeah, absolutely. And I remember hearing I wish I could remember the statistic, but there was a statistic about relating to seeing someone's brand or their name or their logo a certain number of times, and the number of times directly correlates to a level of trust that people feel for that particular company or that brand. And so the marketing, the whole spectrum of making sure you have all of those pieces in place, really all add to the overall big picture that allows someone to have that name recognition, right?

Katie: Absolutely. Yeah. It takes time. And that's where social media is great today because you can consistently show up in where people are naturally spending time scrolling, whether it's in the morning, first thing on their work break at night. You can constantly show up and build that trust and that recognition like you mentioned.

Heidi: Yeah, absolutely. So, so focusing in on I mean, you you took a huge leap of faith, I would imagine, going from having studied. I mean, that is no easy task to graduate to sit for the CPA exam, begin working in the tax field and then to make a decision to come out and start your own company. Tell tell me a little bit about what one of your biggest hurdles has been with starting your own business and how you've overcome that.

Katie: So one of my biggest hurdles has been. About more. I would say not necessarily like business, but personal and the overlap between the two. So learning that you first have to meet your own expectations in life. And so what I mean by that is let's say you have this big pull to start your own business and yet you battle with these pressures of, okay, I have these timelines that I should be doing this. Maybe it's, you know, to buy a house at a certain time, to get married at a certain time, to start a family at a certain time. You have friends that like want you to go out and do all these things. But if you're going to do something like start a business or, you know, go all in on a hobby or maybe you, you take a job, that's going to be a lot of work, it's you're going to have to let other people down in the process. And if you don't, then you let yourself down in that same process. And so when I started my business, I had to do things like tell friends like, Hey, this weekend I'm going to be working and I love you, but I'm not going to be available.

Katie: And I had to do things like tell my husband, Hey, we're going to live on a small budget right now. And, you know, I hope that's okay because I really saw this vision and I really wanted to do it. And I am lucky. Like, for example, my husband, he totally supported me. But personally, I, I struggled with it a lot. And I felt like, am I making the right decision? I feel like I am giving up a lot of say what society tells me I should do right now. And ultimately that lesson of, Hey, you need to meet your own expectations in life. It's something that's carried me way beyond in both business and personal life, because I think a lot of times as we go throughout our life, things come up. And if you're striving for something greater and bigger than you've ever done and maybe out of the norm from the people around you, then they might not understand. And that's totally okay.

Heidi: That's that's huge. I mean, that's so insightful because, you know, coincidentally, I was recently had Amanda Garner on the show and I was asking her similar question and she was like, you have to set boundaries. You have to set boundaries. It helps everybody, including yourself. And to your point, that's huge, too, to make the commitment. I mean, starting your own business and making a change of career, reinventing yourself. There is so much fear that can stifle people and paralyze people from deciding to take a major leap of faith like that that can paralyze people from from making that jump. So kudos to you, first off, for doing that and and taking that step and then also understanding the importance of really setting those boundaries and communicating with the people around you and being strong enough to to stick to what you believed in. Because also, I would imagine you faced some doubt from people in your life, maybe people you, you know, you had maybe who had mentored you or who you had worked for or having studied and sat for the CPA exam. I mean, what what was your spheres sphere of influences reaction to saying, Hey, I'm a CPA now and by the way, I'm going to step out of this and go, you know, start a marketing firm.

Katie: Yeah. So one of the partners when I was doing an exit interview, he's like, Well, what are you going to do next? And because I you know, I had a good relationship with the firm I was working at and I liked the people I worked with and. Whenever I left, I think they were a little bit surprised. And so when they asked that question and I told them, Hey, I'm going out on my own, they're like, So what are you going to do? Just hang off a shingle out, you know, outside your window? Like, how is this going to work? And I said, you know, I don't totally know yet, but I'm going to figure it out. And in the back of my mind, that's true. I did not totally know how it would work out, but I thought, what's the worst case scenario? And if I went to the worst case scenario, it was like, Hey, I could come back to accounting. I have this skill set. There's, you know, maybe I don't come right back to this firm, but there's a lot of other firms. And I think whenever you start dealing with fear.

Katie: Fear is false evidence appearing real. I don't know who to quote that to. It's not mine. I've heard that from multiple people. But when you really look at fear and you go back to, okay, what is the worst case scenario, if I really go all in on this, what's it look like? And a lot of times what we're fearing, it's not going to happen and it's not that bad. And also, why does someone believe that, hey, when you take a look at your life and everything you've done, you've done a lot and you've accomplished accomplished a lot. So why what's your proof that this time you're going to mess up and you can't make it work? But fear is hard. And you know, you have to build yourself up. You have to surround yourself with people who can encourage you. And sometimes that means looking at your inner circle and being like, okay, if you aren't going to be that person of support or you're, you know, you're going to bring me down and maybe right now is not a good time to have that person stay in your circle.

Heidi: Yeah, I mean, that's huge. Like, I love your perspective because you you obviously have a very mature outlook and it takes people lifetimes to realize that at times. How important it is to surround ourselves with people that believe in us and that are positive and that will create support. And, you know, I'll I'll share a little story I'm compelled to share. Um, I was in accounting and I decided to take a leap of faith. Um, it was very, very risky and it was totally outside of my personality, my baseline personality. I knew it would be a huge stretch for me and I was terrified about it. But I saw an opportunity and I was like, if I don't take the opportunity, I feel like I'll regret it. And it's a major challenge and I'm scared and I'm not sure if I will be successful, but I'm willing to take the risk. And to your point, I knew that I could come back and I could get a job in accounting and I could work in that space. And so I had someone who had mentored me that had become he and his family had become very, very close friends with my family. And when I told him what I was doing, he was very disappointed and he told me, You will not succeed. You will not be able to do this. You don't have the right personality. You don't have the right you know. You know, it takes a certain skill set and you're just not the right person to branch out into that space. And you know, what's interesting is I was devastated. I mean, like it literally broke it almost broke me because I had so much respect for this man and really loved him and his family and just a very close connection.

Heidi: So anyway, I was really devastated professionally and also really personally. It hit me hard and I clearly doubted myself and was terrified. But you know, what's interesting is sometimes those moments can actually add fuel to our fire. And I think had he not said that, I don't know if I would have been so driven and so hell bent to prove him wrong. Because because then it was like, well, now I have to succeed. I have to because I will not allow that to be true. And and it did absolutely drive me. And and it sort of pushed me. So I look back on that. It was a long time ago. It was like, you know, 20 years ago. Um, but I still think about that. And so I think if, if we can encourage people to sometimes you take a leap of faith, sometimes take a little risk and maybe there's people that will support you and maybe there's people that won't, but understand that sometimes those things make us better, even if they're they feel really bad at the time. Um, so I mean, did you, you started to share my own story, but I just was thinking about that as you were sharing your story with your colleagues and they're wondering what in the world are you thinking? Did you have anybody who kind of really questioned you and said, what are you doing? You need to you need to, you know, be a CPA and follow the standard path.

Katie: So I had more. So friends like questioned me that I had gone through school with and started at the Big Four with. Because a lot of times you have these start classes and you kind of all join together and it's almost like you're in college again going through high school. So I had a lot of doubt from these people like, you know, if you quit now, you know, you really should get to manager and then you have a lot more opportunities. But for me, I'm like, I don't want to be an accountant. But of course I did, you know, feel that doubt. What I really had is like my push or driver that was different than yours, but in a sense that like, I've got to make this work and do this is right after I quit, it was the year I'd gotten married. And my husband literally right after I quit and said, I'm going to do this. I'm going to go after it. He we found out he had undiagnosed scoliosis and he was actually going to have to get a huge back surgery, a 14 two spinal fusion, and he was going to be off work for we do not know how long. So here I was. I'm like, okay, so you don't have a job. I don't have a job. I have to make this work. And if I don't, then I knew again I could go back and get a job. But it kind of made me go, You need to make this work now. Because had he had his job, he was an engineer, had a nice job. Had he like had that coming in and that money, I don't know if I would have had that same fire and urgency to really like, okay, let's let's get going. I've always been ambitious, but that was like I want to, you know, support my family and really get after it. So I feel like sometimes whenever your back is up against a wall, you you move.

Heidi: Wow. You know what? That's it's so interesting because I agree with that. I think sometimes it's those pressures that actually it lights the fire and no pun intended with your husband's back surgery and, you know having your back against the wall. Um, but it is it's it's so fascinating and I agree that the things that can scare us the most and seem to be the biggest hurdles sometimes they like the fire. That actually is what drives us to the greatest success, the process of having to overcome that hurdle. So that's, that is, that's very awesome. Um, so tell me what you contribute as your number one contributing factor to, to what is driving your success right now?

Katie: The number one factor.

Heidi: Yeah.

Katie: I would say that I'm I always show up. So no matter what's happening, because anyone's going to have good, bad days, you have things come up that you just you can't expect or plan for. I just always show up. And sometimes you know how I show up each day. It's not what it was the day before. Maybe it's better, maybe it's worse. But that's my thing. It's like, just keep showing up. Show up for yourself. Like whether it's going to the gym. Just get in the gym. Just go. Even if you don't feel like doing, you know, the hardest workout, whether it's I love riding horses, it's like, just get to the barn. And even if you're tired, get on the horse or in business, like just show up, get on the phone, call like, do what you know you need to do to make yourself proud. And if you keep showing up enough like you, you move the needle forward. And I've just found that to be true in everything I do.

Heidi: Yeah. That's awesome. Yep. Just show up. So I'm a horse person too. I don't know if you knew that. I didn't know that you were. I knew that.

Katie: From your Instagram, so. Oh.

Heidi: Oh, yes. Oh, we're friends on Instagram then. Yes. And it's my personal Instagram. So. So clearly you've seen that I'm a little obsessed with horses.

Katie: Oh, no, I dressage show jumping. Do it all.

Heidi: Awesome. That's awesome. Okay, So so for all of you listeners who are not horse people, I apologize, but we might have to just divert shortly. Um, so I'm going to ask I'll preface this question with the fact that a lot of people are like, Oh, I don't know anything about horses. Or the next question is, Oh my gosh, I'm really afraid of horses. And I'm always like, That's really you should be afraid of horses. For the record, they're very large, very strong animals. So yes, you should be afraid of horses. Um, you know, we build relationships with these animals. But I've told people, I've said, you know, it's fascinating because the gift I've had of being able to be around horses for much of my life has taught me more about people and relationships than probably my relationships have. Um, so tell me a little bit like getting deep into Katie. What, what about horses draws you in and has has taught you something profound.

Katie: It's this idea that you have to. You have to learn how to communicate without like words and being able to have a conversation with them. Like you have to learn how to use your body language. You have to learn how to read them. Like sometimes they're not having a good day or, you know, something has them spooked or has them, you know, maybe their back hurts. And so you're like, Hey, they need some time off. But like learning how to really communicate with an animal and get it to trust you to do certain things, that's been something that has, you know, I've really loved about horses and I've been a horse girl my whole life. So it's like that, that idea of like creating a bond where you can't you can't have words. And probably other people listening who have pets can can relate that. It's just there's nothing like it.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think I read a lot and listen to a lot of podcasts. One thing that keeps resonating with me and coming back over and over and over also is that nature is nurture. And you know, on the podcast, I try to also bring in some some blending of, of bringing things full circle and having balance with both our physical health, our mental health and our professional and financial health, all of those things because we are all the whole person, you know, we can't separate these things from each other and we shouldn't try because we're not really healthy when we do. Um, but yeah, the, you know, the, the nature is nurture aspect and the ability to be around an animal or to be outside. What I found is a means for allowing you to step outside, to step away from pending issues from, especially today, technology and phones and information and texting and and and the noise and the things that are constantly running are hitting us at all times. It's interesting with horses and I want your feedback on this as well. Um, that, you know, when I'm out there, particularly if I'm writing you, you can't be elsewhere. You cannot be divided in your focus. You have to be present.

Katie: I would say it's not just physically, mentally. You are fully not thinking about anything else.

Heidi: Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's it's yes, you have to be 100% present mentally, physically, emotionally. You have to be present to be with an animal that we're communicating with. To your point, you know, if you become fearful, very often they instantly become fearful. And that does, believe it or not, might seem weird. You guys might all think I'm a strange person, but it correlates to how we communicate with other people as well, is we're confident and we go to our clients and we have conversations and we walk into the situation educated and confident and secure in what we're sharing. That translates to the people around us, whether they're people we're managing, whether they're our employees, whether they are our clients. That is something that is translated and it comes from the whole person. And really believing in having buy in in that and confidence is not always something that just comes easily for everyone. And it's yes, for horses that's helped me. But but in the industry and with individuals or professionals that can be found in many areas where you can find a place to become present, to be all in, and to build your confidence and understand that it's not just, you know, being physically there, but bringing your whole person in that whole focus. So and, and notice maybe if people see the video, I see you have a salt lamp, I have a salt lamp behind me. So we're both sitting here with our salt lamps in our space. Um, and I and I love that. So I feel that you found a little bit of that that balance. Would you say that's true?

Katie: Yeah, I think it's something I constantly am working on where I if I'm not prioritizing being like intentional about keeping that balance between work and hobbies and just everything going on, it can easily slide where work continues to creep up. I mean, there's always more work to do. So just honestly, scheduling it on my calendar, like you're going to go to the barn on these days and like blocking off that time, whether it's, you know, just a ride or take a lesson, that's something that I have to continue to work at. And then also something that I've been working on recently is just because maybe you have like. 30 minutes of downtime. It's like you don't have to always be doing more work. Like work can be going and taking a walk outside and taking a break. Sometimes that 30 minutes, you don't have to just be because it's, you know, between the hours of eight and five at your desk doing more. I don't know why, but I've struggled with feeling guilty If I'm not, whenever it's like, Hey, that break outside in nature on a walk, or maybe you're just like, listen to a podcast like that can do more for you than the 30 minutes that you were at your desk just being there because someone made up a rule that everyone should be, you know, working 40 hours a week years ago.

Heidi: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's great insight and I agree. I mean, I think, again, I hope that this is motivating for some people to remember that we are all of these things combined, not just our our physical bodies or our intellect, and that that ability to get out, to walk, to move, to get our blood flowing allows us time to refocus. It allows us to look at things more proactively. And oftentimes you see a situation from a different perspective. And and so, again, I always love to encourage people get out and go for a walk. Take a break. I love Katie. You know, what you're saying is if you have 30 minutes, allow yourself a little bit of a break and take the time and realize that that may be just as valuable as getting through a couple of more emails. Yeah. So really, really, really good insights. Before we wrap up, why don't you share how people can get a hold of you whether you have a website or contact information and how they can touch base if they'd like?

Katie: Yeah. So I'm Katie Thomas, CPA on pretty much all the social media platforms. Linkedin is my favorite. I hang out there a lot so you can reach me there or go to Leaders Dash Online.com and contact me through my website.

Heidi: That would be awesome. Well, Katie, thank you so much for being here today. And you know, I love these conversations. I learn a lot. I just like talking and I got to meet you at the conference last week. And so it's been really nice to just connect and hear more about what you're doing. So congratulations. And please reach out to Katie if you have questions or if she can help you.

Katie: Thanks so much for having me, Heidi. I appreciate it.